Sunday, 22 April 2012

A "miracle"....? No it was science you muppet.

It has been a long time since I posted but this has annoyed me, although when dealing with religion I should be used to stupidity by now. This has really pissed me off. God has protected him and saved his life. Really? I thought it was prompt, effective CPR followed by good ICU/CCU care. Did god put the "zapper" in his chest? No, it was a skilled cardiologist. Did god guide the cardiologists hands? No it was years and years of study and experience.
I'm sure some religious nut will tell met that god put all those people there just for the purpose of saving Muamba. If so why, if he is so special, did he go to the bother of trying to kill him in the first place. I know god is supposed to 'move in a mysterious manner, his wonders to perform' but this is not just mysterious it is completely opaque.
The comments are even more entertaining, apparantly Muamba is a special person. No, he is an overpaid footballer, that is it. He is no better or worse than anyone else.

I wish him well and a full speedy recovery, but to give god the credit for saving him is just nonsense.


I have twice tried to comment on the Sun's page after the article but surprise, surprise they won't publish what I write. Seems if you cannot say that god or some superior force saved Muamba you are not going to get published.

I am going to say it again; SCIENCE SAVED MUAMBA. His fitness levels, fast effective CPR and the skills, knowledge and experience of the medical team are what has allowed him to be speaking to newspapers today. God does not exist and to allow some imaginary being to be given the credit for this is niave, childish and shows a gross lack of understanding of the world as it is.


Anonymous said...

If prayer saved him, who prayed for him to have a heart attack in the first place?

Dr Aust said...

Yes, I see the Currant Bun published something yesterday saying that Muamba's doctors had no definitive idea what had caused his arrhythmia / VF arrest (assuming that's what it was). I did find myself wondering whether anyone would be attributing that to act of God.

I dare say Muamba's belief, along with his family, will help keep him positive through his recovery... and all the best to him. But I do hope we are spared George Carey and co popping up on TV/radio and in the papers to attribute the recovery (though not the arrest) to the Almighty.

Jason said...

Please do us all a favour and read the entire interview properly before embarking on a tedious attention-seeking atheist rant. At your age you should know better.

"It was pure chance that Dr Deaner was in the crowd that day. I owe him everything.

"He is the reason I have been able to hold my baby son again and continue my life."

Doctor Zorro said...

Hardly pure chance. In a crowd of that size it is statistically highly unlikely that there would NOT be a doctor in the crowd with the requisite skills.

The Angry Medic said...

Okay you should plaster a massive 'GRUMPY ATHEIST ALERT' banner above your blog, you know that? (Though to be fair I think you have the "grumpy" part covered...)

You are of course right, as are your commenters. Partially anyway. You can't prove that God doesn't exist just as much as the religious nuts can't prove He does, so surely poor Muamba is allowed to profess his beliefs as strongly as you profess yours?

Wait don't throw rotten vegetables at me yet! In the end, though, this is your damn blog and you can write whatever the heck you want on it; Lord knows I write worse crap on mine. Okay I'll uh, I'll just go now.

(I'll be back though.)

GrumpyRN said...


Tedious? How so, it is short and to the point.

Athiest? Oh yes!

Attention-seeking? It's my blog and I write what I want, I don't publicise it.

Rant? Where?

At my age I have been through the church nonsense with my mother throughout the 50's and 60's and then learned to think for myself -eg. I grew up and now I do know better.

Muamba - “I asked God to protect me — and he didn’t let me down.” “What happened to me was really more than a miracle.” “I am walking proof of the power of prayer." Someone up there was watching over me. On the morning of the game I prayed with my father and asked God to protect me — and he didn’t let me down.”

I would also like to point out that the Sun still have not posted my comments or any other comments that say god was not involved. So hardly fair and balanced reporting.

GrumpyRN said...

Hi Angry Medic, I had written my last comment just as your comment appeared.
Absolutely grumpy,it's what keeps me going. My argument was never with Muamba professing his faith, if a nice fairy story helps him sleep at night who am I to stop him. But, to say that god did it all and to have all the numpties writing in to the Sun saying how great god is for doing this offended me. Also, I am sure I have seen research somewhere, although I have not looked for it, that shows that patients in hospital who are prayed for actually do worse than those who are not prayed for. If anyone knows of this research a reference would be appreciated.
Anyone who knows me or has seen some of my comments on other blogs - particularly Dr Zorro's - will know how I lean in religious matters.

Thanks for visiting and on my profile it does say that opinions expressed may bear no relationship to sanity.

GrumpyRN said...

Damn, just realised what I wrote in that last comment. Sorry Dr. Zorro, I said I was offended.
I have the right to be offended and everyone else has the right to offend me, paraphrased from Ricky Gervaise.

Anonymous said...

you old grump;

'[...] I have seen [...], although I have not looked for it, that shows that patients in hospital who are prayed for actually do worse than those who are not prayed for. If anyone knows of this research a reference would be appreciated.'

They do worse when doctors stop seeking solutions for particular condition. They might stop seeking solutions, because they have no skills/knowledge for example, or are not aware of possibilities. They might not be seeking solutions because they are convinced there are none and the patient is dying. Clearly medical science has its limits. Any science has.

I don't think prayer itself has any measurable influence on good/bad outcomes. I doubt it can be measured due to other interfering variables which are not possible to filter out (although this particular research may exist). If your doctor tells you 'I can only pray to God in your intention' it isn't necessarily always a bad thing, at least such doctor is being honest and straightforward. Honest regarding his own beliefs in God and his/her own skills and where the skills might be ending.
If a patient wishes to take such support as a prayer form a doctor, that's fine, if not it is patient's right is to have another opinion and sometimes it's worth to do so. If a patient does not understand benefits of second opinion that is quite another problem. It's WHEN to seek second opinion and WHERE to seek for it. Most times there's no need to seek second opinion and most times the 'second opinion' is the first due to timeline ramifications.

If your doctor is honest and straightforward with you and tells you 'I don't know', you are both obliged to seek solution.
And this can't go unnoticed and unappreciated.

Now exert your moronic powers you old grump!

Anonymous said...

Thirteenth commandment for antimoronic powers:
'Sometimes I get what I don't ask for by asking for things I ask for.'

Utterly annoying.

Anonymous said...

As for Ken and Barbie. Ken could have done exactly the same but since I'm not particularly familiar with his doings and he is not in the position, can't conlude if he's a total moron or not. This was a no brainer, p of success 1. Not to pick it up would be the proof of being a moron.

And surely I checked the passie on the sitie and it was blocked. Was it provocation (as all morons do), or was it no brainer. It was a no brainer. Grumpiness is a proof of being a moron. You owe me a bottle. Cynical oldie, told you so.

GrumpyRN said...

Anonymous, anonymous, anonymous (shake head) what are you talking about? I don't understand anything of what you have written.
I said in my comment that I am aware of research somewhere that showed that patients who are prayed for do worse than patients who are not prayed for. I do not know what the title is, I do not know who published it or when it was published or where. Like all people with an interest in the truth I asked for a reference if anyone knew it. I do not want a doctor to pray for me - that is a shaman at best.

Ken and Barbie......? What you been smokin' boy?

Anonymous said...

Right; then no problem at all mate. Sorry. Ken is Ken and Barbie is blonde. No problem, forget it.

Good for you you're not questioning captcha words. That could mean one thing: smoking.

Anonymous said...

'Any opinions expressed here are completely my own and bear no resemblance to NHS policy or procedures and in some cases they will bear no resemblance to sanity.'

we are in the right place.

sincerely yours,

The Nerdy Nurse said...

Really I find it very sad that you cannot give any credit to God in this matter. We really do owe everything to him. If you're religious views prevent you from seeing this, I am very sorry. Don't let your inability to believe cause you to say negative things about the faith of others. Have respect for those that believe in a higher power.
I don't understand how we so easily think we are the masters of the universe.

GrumpyRN said...

Nerdy Nurse, Thank you for you comments, much appreciated. Here are my replies to yur points.

"Really I find it very sad that you cannot give any credit to God in this matter."
- Why? God had nothing to do with it, it was skilled, fast, effective CPR followed by good aftercare as I wrote.

"We really do owe everything to him."
- I can do no better than this quote by David Attenborough, "Well, it's funny that the people, when they say that this is evidence of the Almighty, always quote beautiful things. They always quote orchids and hummingbirds and butterflies and roses." But I always have to think too of a little boy sitting on the banks of a river in west Africa who has a worm boring through his eyeball, turning him blind before he's five years old. And I reply and say, "Well, presumably the God you speak about created the worm as well,"

"If you're religious views prevent you from seeing this, I am very sorry."
- Don't be sorry, I do not have any religious views, although I am partial to the Flying Spaghetti Monster.

"Don't let your inability to believe cause you to say negative things about the faith of others. Have respect for those that believe in a higher power."
- Why? They don't respect my beliefs. the paper has still not printed any of my comments nor any comment that is not religious.

"I don't understand how we so easily think we are the masters of the universe."
- I don't think we are masters of the universe, the universe is supremely indifferent to us, it does not care what happens here. And in fact bacteria and viruses (virii?) are much more successful than human beings having been around longer and in much greater numbers than us.

gale bristlin said...

Ok Im not that god preaching I will say this: If it was God who saved him why do we need doctors? Why do we need the specialist? See it couldn't possibly be God. Yes he might have a had part in it by making sure the right doctors with the right specialty needs were there at the right time to "work" on saving that person. If God preaching people believe that God is the one who performs all Mircacles then why did he send some to school to learn how to care for those who need us in a emergency?


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